Association rules vs FCC

[beermaster]

So I am the unlucky one living in a condo. I love my place but I am not a big fun of my association which as many does not allow anything, period! I cannot install my antenna on the roof neither have I access to the cross space. What would you suggest to do in order to get the best from what I have?

[TheCBDoctor]

So I am the unlucky one living in a condo. I love my place but I am not a big fun of my association which as many does not allow anything, period! I cannot install my antenna on the roof neither have I access to the cross space. What would you suggest to do in order to get the best from what I have?

Hi beermaster,

Get a Ham ticket. Federal law trumps most ordinances and condo rules. You will have to compromise, but because Ham radio is used for civil defense the condo may have to accommodate you. You should contact your local Ham club and they can be of much help getting you some type of antenna. You may have to camouflage it and reduce the height, but the condo associate will have to comply with Federal law and consider some type of compromise. They may have to put in writing why you can not have a Ham station.

Make it tough on the Condo association to fight your rights to operate a Ham station. Become a licensed Ham operator and have the local club fight on your behalf. Put the Condo association on the defensive. Once the antenna is up who will know if you are using it for CB? Keep in mind that they may be able to limit power and the hours of operation. They also may be able to force you to use an antenna that is not the best, but in 90% of all the cases I have seen they must accommodate Ham operators.

That is where I would start. Are there any Ham operators out there can can shed more light on the situation? For example. Condos can keep you from flying a flag, but they can not stop you from flying the American flag, but again they can dictate the size and location.

Good luck and let us know how you make out. You would be surprised what a Ham license and a local club can do on your behalf.

Respectfully,

[beermaster]

Thanks a lot Doctor, this is actually one of my plans. I start my classes in 2 weeks and should have the license within 2 months. Meantime I will try with some wires stretched along my office on the last floor. It is hard to get a good SWR reading though...

[sparky17]

Widebanded, Small, Efficient

You can pick TWO.

I'd go with a small loop antenna.

http://www.alexloop.com
shows how to make them and also offers them already made
http://www.alexloop.com/artigo9.html

Put it in your window.

Otherwise thumb tack a dipole to the ceiling. You'll have wrong polarization, and have to go through the walls and it will be affected by everything in your condo as well as affect everything in your condo... A small loop antenna puts out like a fullsize dipole, but it's small enough to put in your window or hang out your window or hang on your porch or whatever..

They tradeoff that they're small and efficient is that they're not widedbanded (they have a high Q), so they might not have flat SWRs across the band, necessitating 'tuning' it via the knob when you go X channels away.

Small enough that you can just move it horizontal or vertical with ease to shoot skip...

A carefully built small loop will only have (theoretically) 1.5 dbi less gain (1/4th of an S unit) than a 5/8 antenna in the same spot..

[sparky17]

Thanks a lot Doctor, this is actually one of my plans. I start my classes in 2 weeks and should have the license within 2 months. Meantime I will try with some wires stretched along my office on the last floor. It is hard to get a good SWR reading though...

Dipoles indoors interact with stuff inside the house.. Keep it away from all metal. I'd get/make a balun too.

[beermaster]

Thanks Sparky. I was looking at those antennas too and I found a number of sites showing how to build one.
http://www.standpipe.com/w2bri/build.htm
http://www.livecbradio.com/11 ... ntenna.htm

Will a simple loop antenna outperform dipol while use outside, while camping for example?

[721HACKSAW]

I would just forget the base and go strickly mobile if you have a vehicle. The HOA and your neighbors will be happy, a and it will be way less headache in the longrun. Depending on your vehicle you can make a really trick setup and operate just as easily.

[Night Crawler]

Licensed ham or not when you moved into that condo you signed an agreement with the homeowners association regarding the rules and regulations that apply so really you don't have much a of a chance of using that license that will allow you to put up an antenna unless they agree to it.

In your situation to get a indoor antenna to work with a low swr I would suggest using a balanced tuner or one with a 4:1 balun and ladder line as a feeder either with a dipole or a loop pinned to the ceiling as suggested.

To answer your question a fullwave loop will outperform a dipole if it's at the right height above ground.

['Doc]

I'm afraid 'Night Crawler' hit it on the head. You signed a contract agreeing to the HOA's rules. It isn't really an FCC matter, it's a contractual obligation. Depending on how much you and the HOA is willing to spend, you might be able to beat that contractual obligation, but I don't think I'd bet much on your chances. So, you basically have the choice of using a "hidden" antenna, or no antenna. A 'hidden' antenna is never going to be as good as one that's erected properly (out in the open, so high you get a nose bleed putting it up). If you can find one that will 'fit' your limits, then have at it. If not... you can always move. (Yeah, right.)
- 'Doc

[TheCBDoctor]

I lived in a Condo. I worked with the association and got my antenna up because I had a Ham ticket. It was easier for them to compromise then go to the mat and fight a legal battle. Yes, you have a contract, but it depends on the condo association and your location within the condo complex. I happened to live at the edge of complex and they agreed to let me run a coax under ground and I put my antenna within the tree line below the buildings and trees. Luckily I was located on a hill as well.

I would never have been able to put up a CB station. My local club made it sound official and supported me. The Condo association realized it was better to accommodate me and we came to a compromise. A Ham Ticket may not help you in your situation, but it can't hurt. Give it a try it worked for me.

Respectfully,

Rick

[sparky17]

Thanks Sparky. I was looking at those antennas too and I found a number of sites showing how to build one.
http://www.standpipe.com/w2bri/build.htm
http://www.livecbradio.com/11 ... ntenna.htm

Will a simple loop antenna outperform dipol while use outside, while camping for example?

SMALL loop is considerably different from a normal loop antenna. They are two very different antennas.. A "small loop" antenna is less than 1/10th the wavelength. A normal loop antenna is MUCH bigger.

Those are both normal loop antennas that you linked above..

A small loop antenna will be 2-4 feet in diameter for 11m..

Any vertical antenna you will find will be a 1/4 wave without radials, and will suck. Dipole is nice, but you'd have trouble keeping a 20 foot long object away from any materials..

[drdx]

Do you have any outside area at all, maybe with a tree, you could do a wire vertical in a tree. I live in a strict HOA and while I'm sure I could pull the ham card on them I did a hidden tree vertical. It won't set the woods on fire in the signal department but talks a few miles and is good enough to listen for conditions. The possibilities are endless but the performance from a compromize antenna isn't always great. Similar to having a wire inside may be to use an antenna tuner and try to tune an outside metal structure like the gutters or something but as mentioned interference is hard to avoid.

Other than that, maybe a fold up unit. I'm contemplating a fold up base antenna on a pole for night use but I don't know your outside situation. Just like your situation, I signed and acknowledged the rules when I moved in, and recommend not making waves on it either. It will just draw undue negative attention unless you're just hell bent on having a station. If the negotiation went anythink less than super smooth then the first remote sign of interference, whether from you or a lightning storm, and you're the bad guy. Just take all of those dollars you'd put into that base and make a really potent mobile, you'll be more competitive and it is fun beating up/competing with bases with one.

Do you have a carport with a metal roof? You can do a semi-hidden magnet mount antenna in on one of those, painted flat black, with ok results.

-drdx

[PRO151]

If you have a balcony, look at this as one alternative.

http://www.tak-tenna.com/

[beermaster]

Thanks for all your inputs!

So here is an extra questions; what antenna tuner would you suggest for the indoor loop? For now I have a dipol attached to the side walls but I cant get on SWR meter below 2. I am getting a great ears on DX but I cant break into anybody. So I think I will still try to experiment with a full loop indoors with antenna tuner hanging from the ceiling. I am on the last floor and have 2 site walls facing north and east plus a roof above me.

I guess my goal for the summer will be a good antenna for our camping sites. We do camp a lot and I want to try to do some skips from different locations across the country while we camp. For that I want to follow this instruction on measuring the full loop for horizontal use: http://www.livecbradio.com/11 ... ntenna.htm any other suggestions I should look at?

PRO151: thanks for the suggestion but the antenna is $85 so I will pass for now.

[drdx]

A loop is about 37 feet on cb. They require several supports and work fine. For a serious and FUN camping antenna that can fold down small and be made for $10 or less, check out a hex beam. They're the most gain for the buck I've ever personally seen. I did one myself, here's the link to the topic:

http://www.cbradiotalk.com/vi ... +beam+drdx

-drdx

['Doc]

That idea for a full wave loop with a matching section ought'a work. Just keep in mind that you'll probably have to make adjustments to that length just like you would for any antenna. In other words, you gotta tune the thing.
One thing about loops in general. The closer they are to circular, the better they tend to work out. A circular loop made of wire is really hard to manage, so a not so circular shape is generally what you'll end up with. The more area you can get inside that loop, the better off you'll find the results. That means lots of shapes, regular ones, irregular ones, and some really weird ones will probably work just dandy.
With horizontal loops, if the thing is fairly rectangular/square'ish, then feeding it in the middle of one side tends to make it horizontally polarized (same thing for vertical loops). Feeding the same thingy at a corner tends to make it vertically polarized. That may or may not make much difference, but something to keep in mind. just in case.
- 'Doc

[beermaster]

Doctors meaning Doctor and DrDx. Thanks again for the input.

Screw the HOA for now/ I will focus on my camp/travel antenna.
I am leaning now towards either the hex beam or skyper which is a variation of yagi antenna. Any thoughts on those?



However I am getting confused, as every young brewer, with the numbers. Depending on where I read I get different lengths for the driver and director/reflector.
Hex beam, two elements so 1/2 wave should have the driver total lengths of ~204-216 inches (here depending on where I read sometimes calculations are "through the air", another time "through the wire"). So the reflector should have the same length. As we discussed earlier the wire doesn't really matter so it looks like to me that I can basically take my dipol, run it through the pvc, add the other wire for the reflector, erect it and I am all done, right?

[Night Crawler]

Here's a very simple antenna to make that's directional and claims to have a 3db gain over a dipole and works better then a 2 element beam.
http://www.hamuniverse.com/1elbeam.html
For 27mhz each element should be around 8 feet 9 inches I built one using electrical conduit for the elements to see how it would perform and it worked fairly well.

[beermaster]

Already stopped by Menanrds and got all needed PVC pipes. I will post some photos when the antenna is done.
Thanks again for everybody's input!

[beermaster]

Just an update. I found a rule in FCC regulation which allows Ham operators to raise antennas for their operations and it looks like my HOA is going for it.

NRS 278.02085 Amateur radio
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NR ... 78Sec02085

[721HACKSAW]

The CB radio hobby has always suffered from interference problems, that is probably the #1 reason of its decline since its heyday in the 70's. The population increased, homes got closer together, and interference made people angry. These days it is computer speakers, surround sound systems and many other electrical devices that can be interferred with easily. If your HOA does allow an outside antenna what if you interfer with your neighbors?
Good luck and enjoy.

[beermaster]

I have been talking using 100-200 Watts recently from a dipole inside the apartment, a dipole on the balcony and now a dipole on the side of the building. I am not hiding my hobby from my neighbors and so far nobody was complaining. I hope that a nicely put antenna on the roof should be fine...I hope. Good thing is everybody in the building has cable now, nobody uses regular antenna. Another thing; I live on the edge of the building, maybe they agree to put the antenna on my corner instead of the already installed antenna mast.

[beermaster]

Believe it or not, I got HOA approval.!!!

here is the story: http://www.cbradiotalk.com/vi ... =8&t=40005